A growing network of online communities known collectively as the “manosphere” is emerging as a serious threat to gender equality, as toxic digital spaces increasingly influence real-world attitudes, behaviours, and policies, the UN agency dedicated to ending gender discrimination has warned.

  • FloMo@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    I only see women being pushed into places with traditionally male majority, but not men being pushed into places with traditional female majority

    Genuinely curious, got any examples of “traditional female majority places” that masculine individuals cannot enter/participate in?

    • sudneo@lemm.ee
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      2 months ago

      Not OP, but positions like nurses or teachers are very female dominated. It’s not like males cannot reach those positions, but there are social obstacles to that. To make an example from my country, in Italy primary school teachers are > 90% female. I believe in kindergarten they reach 97 or 98%. This is also partially the result of strict gender roles than discriminate both men and women in terms of caring for children (I.e., women are de facto forced to do that, men are pushed away), which then reinforces the social practice of women doing all the caring jobs.

      This is IMHO a problem for both men and women, but probably it’s not from the same perspective as what OP meant…

      • FloMo@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        positions like nurses or teachers are very female dominated.

        I’m sure it varies from country to country, but in the US women could not study medicine until the late 1800’s and the US Army did not allow female physicians until 1940.

        It’s not unlikely to think we have many people today who were alive before women practicing as physicians was common place.

        I’m convinced it’s less of a matter of a group “dominating” a space but rather being pigeonholed/forced into it due to a lack of options, and these circumstances have impact that are still felt to this day.

        I’m not sure about Italy but in a lot of the US becoming a school teacher requires a college degree and has wages that do not keep up with the cost of living.

        You can look up articles of teachers losing their jobs for doing sex work or provocative modeling to earn extra income because their job does not pay enough.

        Doesn’t seem like that big of a win? Unless I’m missing something?

        Edit: re-read your reply and realized I did not read it properly the first time. That’ll teach me to comment in the wee hours LOL. I greatly appreciate your response! Leaving the original reply in place for the sake of context.

        • zaphod@sopuli.xyz
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          2 months ago

          I’m sure it varies from country to country, but in the US women could not study medicine until the late 1800’s

          In Germany at the moment around two thirds of medicine students are women and I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s the similar in most western countries.

      • grue@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        The difference is that, typically, the lack of women in male-dominated fields is due to them being actively pushed away from things they want to do, while the lack of men in female-dominated fields is due to those fields being less prestigious/well-paid (often due to being traditionally female) and them not wanting to pick them in the first place. But when they do decide to enter those fields, nobody’s actively trying to stop/discourage them.

        Superficially there may seem to be similarities in circumstance, but the amount of agency men and women have to enter opposite-gender-dominated careers is vastly different.

        • ryathal@sh.itjust.works
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          2 months ago

          It’s the same in female fields, it’s not just prestige. Men face increased scrutiny when working with children. Male nurses are expected to perform the more physical parts of the job almost exclusively.

        • Fedditor385@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          Better paid jobs are usually more risky, competitive and harsh with short deadlines, that why the are paid more than jobs where you can just do your shift and happily go home like daycare or teaching. It happens that men simply naturally want the adrenaline and excitement that comes with the first because they want to prove themselves.

          If you look into history, men where those that went hunting which can be dangerous, while women were those who collected berries and nursed children, not much danger there.

          As a man, I actually thing women are crazy for not wanting to keep being a houswife a thing. It’s like being the CEO of the house. WFH guaranteed, you are the one making plans and deadlines, minimal stress, and you have probably enough spare time to do whatever you want as a hobby on the side (unless you have small children). I truly don’t see the downside, I would thrive in home improvement and gardening…

          • SpaceShort@feddit.uk
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            2 months ago

            The extreme depression and anxiety exhibited by women in the 1950s contradicts your claim.

            • Fedditor385@lemmy.world
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              2 months ago

              True, if we are talking as if today was 1950 and the socioeconomic situation were the same. But it’s not. There’s almost 80 years of progress and the socioeconomic situation is not even comparable. So, although true it was a problem 80 years ago, its a bit shortsigthed to claim same applies today.

              • SpaceShort@feddit.uk
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                2 months ago

                The 1950s was when women were relegated to the role of housewife. You are asking why women don’t want to be relegated to that role.

                • Fedditor385@lemmy.world
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                  2 months ago

                  There was nothing wrong with that role then, and there is nothing wrong with the role now. The main difference is that in 1950 women had no choice but to be a housewife, and today women have choices, and when comparing them, being a housewife doesn’t look half as bad.

                  • SpaceShort@feddit.uk
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                    2 months ago

                    The lack of income independent from your spouse is a huge argument against being a housewife.

        • sudneo@lemm.ee
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          2 months ago

          There are 2 issues here that are being mixed.

          One is women not being allowed to positions of power. The other is with women being underrepresented in certain fields (e.g., stem).

          The second issue is what I am talking about and I don’t think at all that men “choose” not to try certain careers in the same way women don’t “choose” not to study stem and pursue stem careers. For both, social pressure and expectations, an existing field dominated by the other sex with all its implications are factors of discrimination. Strict gender roles are damaging for both men and women, and this is a perfect example.

          • grue@lemmy.world
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            2 months ago

            There are 2 issues here that are being mixed.

            One is women not being allowed to positions of power. The other is with women being underrepresented in certain fields (e.g., stem).

            I think it’s fair to mix them, to an extent, because I think the degree of underrepresentation is often directly proportional to the prestige/pay/power of the field. Both are symptoms of the same underlying issue, which is bigots discounting women’s competency and refusing to entrust them with things of importance.

    • Fedditor385@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      Daycare, men who work with children in general. It feels like taboo, and I assume it’s because the general opinion seems to be that men that want to be around children are most likely pedophiles. I never heard of a program to include more men in daycare.

      • FloMo@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        Excellent example, and I sincerely appreciate you engaging in good faith discussion!

        I agree that being masculine should by default not be a barrier - social or otherwise - from working with children.

        How do we begin to change that as a society?

        Although I can’t think of the solution myself, I also don’t see how advancing equality for feminine individuals would hold back equality for masculine individuals.

        As mentioned in another comment, a lot of these problems seem to stem from the enforcement of dated gender norms.

        • Captain Aggravated@sh.itjust.works
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          2 months ago

          This is one where I think the ball is very much in the women’s court.

          I’ve seen a trend of vertical videos of fathers playing with their children, with a caption similar to “my latest ick.”

          Millennial men are the most engaged cohort of dads in living memory, and women have responded pretty poorly to this.